Sukkot & Simchat Torah survey
Yes, I know I skipped Sh'mini Atzeret, but my questions don't pertain to it, except insofar as Simchat Torah is, technically, the Galut's/Diaspora's second day of Sh'mini Atzeret. (I was well into my twenties before I figured that out. How come they never told me that in Hebrew School?)
Sukkot questions
For my male readers of the Orthodox persuasion:
Do you buy one lulav and etrog for each male member of your family who's already become a Bar Mitzvah (responsible for fulfilling all the mitzvot/commandments), or do you share one and pass it around?
For my female readers of the Orthodox persuasion:
1. Do you take the lulav and etrog? If so, do you say the brachah/blessing?
2. Is there anything in particular that the females do while the males are circling the synagogue with the lulav and etrog, chanting the Hoshanot prayers?
3. Is it now common for women to eat in the sukkah? Are sukkot routinely constructed that are large enough to accommodate all the females of the family (or congregation) along with the males for meals and/or kiddush? Do the women of your family and/or community recite the brachah "leisheiv" for "dwelling" in the sukkah?
Simchat Torah questions
In your synagogue, what do the women do while the men are circling the synagogue with the sifrei Torah (Torah scrolls), chanting the Hakafot?
Does your congregation have a separate Hakafot and/or Torah reading by and for women on Simchat Torah? (Touchy topic, I know--just curious.)
Sukkot questions
For my male readers of the Orthodox persuasion:
Do you buy one lulav and etrog for each male member of your family who's already become a Bar Mitzvah (responsible for fulfilling all the mitzvot/commandments), or do you share one and pass it around?
For my female readers of the Orthodox persuasion:
1. Do you take the lulav and etrog? If so, do you say the brachah/blessing?
2. Is there anything in particular that the females do while the males are circling the synagogue with the lulav and etrog, chanting the Hoshanot prayers?
3. Is it now common for women to eat in the sukkah? Are sukkot routinely constructed that are large enough to accommodate all the females of the family (or congregation) along with the males for meals and/or kiddush? Do the women of your family and/or community recite the brachah "leisheiv" for "dwelling" in the sukkah?
Simchat Torah questions
In your synagogue, what do the women do while the men are circling the synagogue with the sifrei Torah (Torah scrolls), chanting the Hakafot?
Does your congregation have a separate Hakafot and/or Torah reading by and for women on Simchat Torah? (Touchy topic, I know--just curious.)
posted by Shira Salamone at 5:46 PM
14 Comments:
1. Do you take the lulav and etrog? If so, do you say the brachah/blessing?
For my wife, if the weather is nice and we're having lunch in the Sukkah, she will. If the weather is crappy, she won't.
Regarding the blessings, Ashkenazi women make them, Sephardi women do not, family customs not withstanding.
2. Is there anything in particular that the females do while the males are circling the synagogue with the lulav and etrog, chanting the Hoshanot prayers?
Generally not there yet, the women tend to show up towards the end of the service, and we do the Lulav/Etrog part in the beginning.
3. Is it now common for women to eat in the sukkah? Are sukkot routinely constructed that are large enough to accommodate all the females of the family (or congregation) along with the males for meals and/or kiddush? Do the women of your family and/or community recite the brachah "leisheiv" for "dwelling" in the sukkah?
Depends on the weather, depends on the family. Our Sukkah is large and fits everyone in it. The women were all hit or miss. In South Florida, where the weather for the lunch meals can exceed 90 degrees, most of the women came out for Kiddush and Motzei, then went and ate inside with the kids. They left the guys out there sweating. Most of the women in our crew are currently pregnant, so the heat was pretty rough. At night, with the bugs, sometimes they stayed, sometimes they got annoyed with the weather and went inside.
If the weather was particularly bad, like it was the first night down here, my wife held my son in the doorway and listened while I made Kiddush and Motzei in the Sukkah, then came inside and ate.
Is that not what you were looking for? When the weather is nice, we're all out there, when it's not, the women tend to not hang out outside. But we all were having meals at each other's houses, so it's not a matter of the husband out there alone.
In your synagogue, what do the women do while the men are circling the synagogue with the sifrei Torah (Torah scrolls), chanting the Hakafot?
Generally hanging out with the small children who get overwhelmed. If they don't have small children, they may hang out, or they may leave. Admittedly, Simchat Torah is the least "fun" for women holiday, on the other hand, the atmosphere is WAY more fun for my wife then it was for her in a Conservative Shul growing up, where nobody did anything.
Does your congregation have a separate Hakafot and/or Torah reading by and for women on Simchat Torah? (Touchy topic, I know--just curious.)
Depends on who shows up. If there are women that want to and someone that can do it, then yes. If there aren't, then no.
If you find yourself in So. Fla. for second days ever, I'm sure we'd get a few women up for a separate reading group at the local Aish HaTorah.
Some of these things are political at the "big Shuls," but for the smaller ones, practical needs tend to trump politics. If women want one, they'll have one. Most of the women like showing up during Musaf and hanging out for Kiddush, not hanging around for services.
As for the young childless women? They tend to show up, see their friends get there later with their children, realize that they are missing something, and have a child within the next 12-18 months... :) At least that's what happened to my wife and a few of the other women.
The ones with older children, not small children? They tend to be happy to ship the children off to the synagogue with their husband, and have an hour or two to themselves with a book and a cup of coffee.
It sounds to me as if many of the decisions on observance made by the women of your family and community are based more on pragmatic considerations than on principle. There's something to be said for that, especially if you're pregnant and/or chasing young kids.
I insist that all members of my family shake the lulav every day; boys and girls, with the bracha of course. We all share the same set. That, I believe, is standard procedure for the chassidus I belong to, although the hyperreligious goons are often more cavalier about the importance of female participation.
Interestingly, I notice that insisting on the womens presence in the Sukka is often seen in the Shaigetz environment as proof of emancipation; at least where the spouse is actively involved in the movement. Partly I suppose because in modern Chassidic dogma any separation of the sexes is percieved as desirable.
Here too I have never seen the custom of making the bracha questioned except intelectually.
It's nice to know that women's participation is encouraged among some within the chassidic world--stereotype-busters are always welcome here.
Re your statement that "in modern Chassidic dogma any separation of the sexes is percieved as desirable," you might want to do a search for "the shaigetz" on my blog: I'm pretty sure I've quoted your Ai du post, complaining about the current obsession, in some Orthodox circles, with the separation of males from females in just about any setting, at least twice.
Yeah, Sukkot is driven by practical concerns. Sometimes the newly observant are offended, when there isn't enough room for everyone to be inside the Sukkah, the men (who are obligated to hear Kiddush inside the Sukkah) get priority over the women, who may have to wait outside.
We had a bunch of people for a BBQ on the second day, we all ate in the Sukkah until the women decided that it was too hot, then we benched and the guys hung out drinking beer and playing cards in the Sukkah, while the women hung out inside the air conditioning.
Generally the hyper sensitivity is with the less educated segments of the Orthodox world. The rule of thumb is that, "when in doubt, be chumra (strict)," so if you are educated, you understand what to do.
My wife works a full work week, plus gets ready for Shabbat/Chagim. So instead of hitting services in the morning, she gets the baby to take a nap, grabs a cup of coffee, and reads a book. I certainly won't begrudge her the relaxation of Shabbat, even if I sometimes wish she'd come by at least for Kiddush to see people.
When the guys are dancing with the Torah, the women are generally socializing with each other and catching up. Men don't really "talk" the way women do, so it works nicely for all involved.
Do what you want. Regarding the Brachah of Leisheiv B'suckah, if we are eating in the Sukkah, I make it with Kiddush and/or Hamotzei, and she Amen's my bracha. She won't go into the Sukkah without me, so it doesn't come up.
For my male readers of the Orthodox persuasion:
Do you buy one lulav and etrog for each male member of your family who's already become a Bar Mitzvah (responsible for fulfilling all the mitzvot/commandments), or do you share one and pass it around?
While female, I shop for lulavim and etrogim for all in the house (including the husband) and get one for each over bar/bat mitzvah member
For my female readers of the Orthodox persuasion:
1. Do you take the lulav and etrog? If so, do you say the brachah/blessing? Both my daughter and I (as well as several other women in each of the two modern orthodox shuls I frequent) bring them to shul and hold them during Hallel and Hakafot
2. Is there anything in particular that the females do while the males are circling the synagogue with the lulav and etrog, chanting the Hoshanot prayers? stand with the lulav and etrog and recite the relevant tefilot
3. Is it now common for women to eat in the sukkah? Are sukkot routinely constructed that are large enough to accommodate all the females of the family (or congregation) along with the males for meals and/or kiddush? Do the women of your family and/or community recite the brachah "leisheiv" for "dwelling" in the sukkah? In our community it is almost universal that women sit in the sukkah and make the brachot
Simchat Torah questions
In your synagogue, what do the women do while the men are circling the synagogue with the sifrei Torah (Torah scrolls), chanting the Hakafot?
At night, one of the shul's I go to has hakafot on our side of the mechitzah and the women are passed the Sefer Torah after the initial verses are chanted. During the day, we have a Women's Tefilah which draws 50-60 women.
At Ramat Orah, the women's section gets 4 sifrei Torah from the very start of hakafot. Since none of us are kohanim, wives and bat kohanim take the first hakafa. We dance in the social hall where the "mechitza" is basically two tables and air. I was at Hadar last year, and Ramat Orah was almost exactly like that (in terms of dancing and volume of singing) minus the mixed (ie. spirited, LOUD, long. Amazing =) ). Men and women wander over to each other's sections to socialize.
Both men and women do Hoshanot. I did not have my own arbah minim, so someone from the men's section gave me a set (because the community is just like that) which I gave back during hoshanot. Women who do not have an arba minim set also do hoshanot (walking around the women's section). I think it's easier because of the down the middle setup of the mechitza.
Men and women bentsch lulav as well as say "leshev b'sukkah". We also eat and learn in the sukkah.
Alex, I suppose it does make sense, in Orthodox circles, that the men get priority for the sukkah, since they have a clear-cut mitzvah to hear Kiddush, at least, in one. Oh, well.
I disagree with you on socializing during the hakafot, though. While one could make a case that "Men don't really "talk" the way women do," we could do that any old time. To stand around yakking while the men are celebrating for an hour or more wouldn't do a thing for me, other than to make me upset that I wasn't invited to join in. Permission to talk in synagogue is no compensation for exclusion.
Anon., all those lulav sets must cost a fortune! But I'm tickled that the women and men of your family and community get to participate in the mitzvot.
RivkaYael, that's neat! If I still lived in Manhattan, I'd check out Ramat Orah on Simchat Torah.
Alex, I should mention that one of the Orthodox single women from my office told me that, now that she's no longer living with her parents, she doesn't go to shul on Simchat Torah at all--with neither a father nor a husband to watch during the hakafot, she feels that there's no point to her being there.
I disagree with you on socializing during the hakafot, though. While one could make a case that "Men don't really "talk" the way women do," we could do that any old time. To stand around yakking while the men are celebrating for an hour or more wouldn't do a thing for me, other than to make me upset that I wasn't invited to join in. Permission to talk in synagogue is no compensation for exclusion.
I guess the point is, the women aren't normally there during Hakafot, they come after. If they show up during it, they are normally there to see each other.
In a Shomer Shabbat community, "any old time" doesn't really exist. They aren't chatting on the phone Saturday afternoon, everyone works all week (to be able to afford houses inside the Eruv, pay for Yeshiva tuition, etc.), and Sunday is doing any errands not done during the week. Shabbat and Chagim are the times that everyone has free to catch up.
The biggest differentiator is our over-priced housing situation plus family size, which makes free time to catch up, or hang out drinking with the Torah for the guys, a premium.
There is less free time when families have 3-5 kids instead of 1-3. Not trying to be judgmental, but our lives are VERY: different from even the right-wing of Conservative, so your priorities aren't ours.
Shira: It's after sukkot, but I might as well share this:
1. I did NOT buy a lulav and etrog for my over bar mitzva aged kids this year -- I was so annoyed that last year they hardly went to shul, that I decided they could buy their own (or split it 50/50 with me), but I would not buy sets for them if they were too lazy to go to shul. This sukkot, my second oldest did make it every day...
2. I give my wife and daughters the lulav/etrog after shul and they also "bentch" lulav.
3. My wife and daughters say the bracha layshev basuka when they eat in the sukka. (Which is most of the time).
5 of my kids slept in the sukka this year (boys and girls, with a table down the middle). They thought it was fun and cool. I slept in my bedroom.
"There is less free time when families have 3-5 kids instead of 1-3. Not trying to be judgmental, but our lives are VERY: different from even the right-wing of Conservative, so your priorities aren't ours." You may have a point, Alex.
Jameel, your kids don't want to go to synagogue, either?! That happens in Orthodox families, too? I'm sorry to say that our son has been that way most of his life. We're still hoping he'll change his mind, eventually. Maybe we'll send him over to your place next Sukkot for a sukkah camp-out with waffles for breakfast. :)
Shira: Thankfully, there are later minyanim in our community, and 1 boy made it there daily...the other one...well, not every day. He's a full-blooming teenager; wants to stay out late, sleep late, you get the drift.
BTW - he does daven daily, but not with a minyan, and I'm happy (relieved) that he does. My issue with the arba minim was that it's not a big deal for him to go to shul during vacation since there are later daily minyanim, and he was intentionally over-lazy last year. (Though I think he was secretly disappointed I didn't buy a set for him)
During school; minyan is part of his school day (at school) so he's at it daily regardless.
And yes, raising teenagers, even orthodox ones, is still a challenge !!
Jameel, I wish *our* son davvened on a regular basis--I'd settle for Shabbat and Yom Tov, though, obviously, daily would be better--with or without a minyan.
Teenagers are a challenge, no matter where one is on the "observance spectrum." Good luck!
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